Daniela: Okay, Ali. So today we’re going to play a game called planet or pixel. So I’m just going to tell you a word, and you want to tell me if it reminds you more of a planet or a pixel. Okay? Nebula.
Ali Lennon (AL): Planet.
Daniela: Code.
AL: Pixel.
Daniela: Orbit.
AL: Planet.
Daniela: Layout.
AL: Pixel.
Daniela: Flocks.
AL: Planet.
Daniela: Widget.
AL: Pixel.
Daniela: Comet.
AL: Pixel.
Daniela: Oh, sorry, planet. Sorry, I thought you said comet. Yeah, no, comet, like a comet.
AL: Yeah, no, comet, like a comet.
Daniela: Okay, yeah. Script.
AL: Pixel.
Daniela: And last one, big orange planet.
AL: Planet pixel.
Daniela: I love that. I love that for you. Guys, welcome to Fully Managed. You guys heard it. We are here with Ali Lennon from Big Orange Planet, which is why I was asking him if the words reminded him of a planet or a pixel. Welcome, Ali. How are you doing?
AL: I’m very excited to be here. This is my first ever podcast, as I’ve told you, Daniela. So I hope to excel for the Big Orange Planet.
Daniela: I’m really happy to have you. I’m really honored that I get to be the first person that you film with. Welcome to Fully Managed. Guys, you know what the drill is. We talk about marketing, we talk about business, all of the tips that you need to assist you guys in your business journeys. And you know me, the host, Daniela, Penji’s Partnership Coordinator. And now you know the guest, Ali Lennon and Big Orange Planet. We have a great conversation planned today. But to get the ball rolling, break the ice a little bit. Can you tell us about yourself, what we got to know, everything that is necessary?
AL: Yeah, well, I’ll give you the hurry up offense if I will. So myself and my wife started Big Orange Planet over twenty years ago, which in web time is about two thousand years roughly. When we started it, my wife was living in the UK. I was working for Comcast as a network technician. We were working on a long distance relationship. She’d taken a web course. I wanted to get out of corporate America, so we decided to form a design company. Primarily focused on web. At the time, we really didn’t know much about what we were doing. My wife had taken a course in Flash. Do you remember Flash? Via Macromedia at the time. It obviously is now Adobe. Yeah. So we kind of evolved and, uh, you know, started making flash websites and then, you know, doing logos, business cards, brands, et cetera. Eventually as you’re probably aware, the, uh, the phone appeared and flash slowly, but surely went away because, uh, flash depended on the mouse. So then we had to evolve again and, you know, get more into HTML, which makes sense more also from an SEO perspective, uh, a phone perspective, obviously. And, um, we’ve since have, uh, been creating sites in WordPress. We also have our own content management system that we’re a international partner in. That’s the hurry up offense that I’ve got right now. So right now we’re still here and we’re dealing with one type of client after another. We don’t pigeonhole ourselves. We just like to make cool stuff.
Daniela: I love that. I love talking to people who have been in the industry for a long time because I feel like you’ve been able to witness a lot of changes as, you know, technology progresses and kind of life moves on. And I always love getting perspectives from people like this. So I’m excited to ask you all the stuff that I have planned. But the first question that I have is the name Big Orange Planet. What does it represent? Is there a story behind it or did you just kind of like randomly come up with it on a Tuesday?
AL: There is actually a story behind it. So my wife, like a lot of creative folks, is heavily dyslexic. I’ve noticed that throughout the years, uh, I can actually spot a dyslexic person just by working with them or even talking to them. And they’re always kind of surprised. And the reason is because I know how dyslexia manifests. So for some reason, my wife, uh, Sarah, uh, who’s our creative director to this day, uh, her personal email account was at the time, big orange planet at yahoo.com. Remember yahoo? Back in the day. So we were actually out in a bar with some friends of ours and we were brainstorming names for a company that we were just about to start. And I kept coming up with stuff that sounded like a Thai restaurant like golden carp and stuff like this. So one of my friends, uh, said what about Sarah’s email address which was big orange planet at yahoo because she could somehow consistently spell it correctly so that’s how the name big orange planet came about so there is a story behind it kind of bogus but it’s true.
Daniela: I think it’s really sweet, especially because it was something very personal to your wife. I like it. I don’t think it’s bogus.
AL: Yeah, no, it’s good.
Daniela: I’m curious, though, because you started this a while back, and obviously you mentioned how you transitioned from Flash because it kind of went away. With all of the changes that have been happening, the mission or kind of the purpose or what you guys had set out to do initially, how has that actually evolved from like when you launched the company towards how it is now?
AL: Um, oh, definitely very much so. Uh, you know, obviously when we got in, we started making, you know, sites for mom and pop. Shall we say, you know, when you start a company from, you know, with really no investment, you take whatever you can get. I think our first website might’ve been five hundred dollars or something of that nature. I don’t remember exactly. I choose to forget it actually. Then we sort of went through an evolution. We hooked up with a business partner in Romania. That’s where the backbone of our code evolved. We’ve been friends like brothers for twenty years now, business partners, and we still have never actually physically met. Um, which is kind of odd. Uh, I’ve tried to get to Romania on a few occasions, but, uh, we’re European, as you can probably tell from my accent. And when we do go, we have to go to Ireland and England and sometimes Italy and getting to Romania is a bit of a problem, uh, cuz it’s another big journey. Did I answer the question adequately or?
Daniela: Yeah, yeah, no, it was perfect. I think it totally makes sense. And I’m also curious, because now that we’re going into web design and how much it has changed over the years, with all of the DIY options that have sort of popped up in the recent years, what do you think actually is making websites great or interesting or worthwhile?
AL: That’s a very good question. There’s so many different ways to make a website now, as you said. I mean, you know, anybody who has half a brain can, you know, get on Wix, give them ten dollars a month or whatever it costs. And, you know, there are many, many ways. Many others, Weebly and Co. So you can theoretically make a passable website. Well, there’s a couple of different factors that go into the problems with that. A, it looks like you made it yourself or your son who’s fourteen years old made it. So it doesn’t give the professional a lower, shall we say. And then when it comes to more complicated backend type functionality, like subscriptions or a shopping cart or user accounts and so forth, then those types of builders obviously fall down because they’re not geared to accommodate it. So I would say, well, first of all, everything has to be mobile responsive, obviously, and most of those builders do. But the difference as a sort of reputable company looking to upgrade their site, or even some of them that don’t even have sites, even though they’ve been around for ten, fifteen years, the sort of difference for them would be not cheaping out, not having someone in the company do it for pennies on the dollar, i.e. hiring a professional.
Daniela: I think a big thing is I believe that these type of website builders are going to take you so far. But like you said, complex and more intricate stuff is harder. And I think kind of you can build a website, but then having that website convert into whatever it is that you’re aiming for it to do is the hardest part, which actually leads me to the question that I also have, which is what do you think are the misconceptions that businesses and just in general people tend to have when they’re building a website that is going to actually convert?
AL: Uh, absolutely. Uh, we called it the, uh, builders and they will come theory. Uh, and of course that doesn’t exist. Uh, there are hundreds of billions of websites, uh, from what I understand on the, on the web right now, uh, you can build anything you want. It’s not gonna put it in Google’s eyes or, uh, Bing’s eyes or even Yahoo’s eyes. If anybody still uses Yahoo, um, The, uh, the conversion aspect, uh, will come in when people actually find your website and when people find it useful. So first of all, they gotta find this and then they gotta get value, whether it be a transaction, whether it be finding information about your company, uh, whether it be one thing we talk a lot about is credibility. So informational type websites that are effectively an online brochure. They need to be credible in the same way that if you were to give a printed brochure of your company or entity, you know, in the hands of a potential client or whoever, you want that level of credibility, professional looking design and finishing.
Daniela: Yeah, I think as a user, I’m looking for functionality versus easy access to actionable things, especially if it’s, like, a shopping website. You know, like, I hate going into websites that are so cluttered and difficult and then – or with a lot of pop-up ads and apps as well. I don’t know. Like, I feel like Timu has had a really big surge lately.
AL: Timu?
Daniela: Yeah, people have been shopping on Timu a lot, and I tried the app, and I tried the website, and I hate it. Like, I know that there’s a lot of stuff that you can buy, but I feel like the website is so – just I don’t like it. It’s so cluttered. It’s got so many pop-up ads coming up when you’re just trying to, like, browse or something, and it’s overwhelming.
AL: Sorry. I’m not actually familiar with Timu. Is that kind of a new online store, like, say, Alibaba or Shine?
Daniela: Yeah, it’s an online store like that. Yeah, it’s called Timu. It’s Chinese. And I will say, it’s obviously a cultural thing because I do think that China and the website design that they have is very similar to what they would usually have. But I just like as a user really feel stressed when I see it because it’s the type of website like that like eBay or or any of these where you know just like you get a lot of pop-up ads that are like twenty percent discount like come and play this Russian roulette and see what you get and it’s like I feel like it’s overwhelming when you’re just trying to like browse do your thing because everybody you pretty much everybody uses the web in the same way get in get what you want and get out.
AL: And then you start having to click X’s to, you know, click out of, you know, like you said, an ad or a wheel or what have you. It’s just annoying and it’s more likely to actually get you to go somewhere else. It’s like I find this website so annoying that I’m just out of here and I’m going to shine or, you know, wherever I am.
Daniela: It’s similar to Amazon. I would say it’s like a direct competitor to Amazon right now. That’s the type of website that they are. But I just remembered because of the experience that I have in terms of the website outside of the shopping, because I actually never bought anything there. But I’ve browsed and it stops me from wanting to buy because I get annoyed at just the existence of it. But actually, it poses a really great question that I wanted to ask you, which is, I think when you’re building a website, it’s so hard to find a balance between creative design and functionality and technical stuff and purpose. How do you actually approach that topic when you’re thinking about the goals of your website that are going to make it functional, it’s going to be easy, but it’s also pleasing to look at? Because the aesthetic is a very big part of a website. People look at it with their eyes. And then if it’s attention grabbing, you’re going to want to see more. but also you want something simple. How do you mix those things?
AL: Yeah, it’s the blend of form and function, in effect, which is exactly what you’re saying. If the form looks bad, then, you know, you’re going to bounce, you know, the bounces is just when you click on a website and you just leave. If the function doesn’t work, you’re going to bounce but a little bit slower. So it’s, I think it comes down to experience. And also, we spend a lot of time looking at your websites made by other people. You know, recent websites is like, here is something good. You know, here’s, you know, for example, if a prospective client comes up and let’s say they’re a steel manufacturer, we would encourage them. And we would also look at, for example, you know, a few different websites of steel manufacturers. Not that that’s uh it’s a good uh starting point but it’s like okay who does it well who does it badly. Obviously, you don’t have to pigeonhole yourself into oh it’s got to look like a steel manufacturer the other guy is the good one you know you can look at furniture manufacturers or and so on and so forth. But, uh, we are always seeking inspiration. The web changes really rapidly all the time and the pace of acceleration increases exponentially so you know what worked last year is not necessarily what works this year if you’re building a site for tomorrow.
Daniela: Yeah, I think that the progression of technology, especially with internet-related stuff, is insane right now. It’s getting faster and more and more all the time, like you said, which actually makes me curious, with AI being a big thing right now, has that impacted web design in how you guys approach it, how your clients approach it in any shape or form? I feel like I see more AI bots being added. I know that more AI processes are being added into different platforms and different programs, but I’m curious to hear from, you know, the experts.
AL: No, that’s a very good question. I would compare the rise of AI to the rise of WordPress templating. So when we started, it was a case of, you know, either flash or hand coded in HTML. WordPress didn’t exist back then. AI has obviously recently come on the scene. I think of AI as the same kind of deal as WordPress templates in that you don’t necessarily have to be a good designer. You can be an adequate designer and you can get something that will get you some money, shall we say, because the tools are there and you just have to drop stuff into boxes and update text and so forth. We haven’t really gotten into AI as yet. We have our processes and we, you know, we tend to uh custom build more because we make really complex stuff that said as AI evolves it’s gonna become necessary for us to think about it more and more and learn about it, you know, its capabilities and its uh failings as we go forward.
Daniela: Yeah, I think that’s kind of true for everybody in every industry like even if you right now you’re not getting affected or you can work without it eventually we’re gonna have to all be a little bit familiar with it if the growth continues to be exponential.
Daniela: And I’m also like, here’s a question that I have that is, very kind of I’m always curious about this when I talk to people who offer a specific type of service. So you guys do like obviously you do a lot of web design for other companies. I talked to someone who told me that they did really great marketing, like they were a marketing agency. They told me, like, I do amazing marketing campaigns for other people, but I forget to do my own. Um, or like, she feels like, you know, like our company’s marketing is not the best. Um, and they know it because they offer the service. Do you find that to happen? Like, or do you feel like it’s different for you where you feel like I have to have a website in tip top shape, um, and in order to offer my service to other people, or do you feel like it falls into the back burner and then you have amazing projects for others and then your website kind of gets forgotten? I’m curious what your perspective is.
AL: No, again, a good question. I think we are what we make. So to give you some perspective, Daniela, I believe the current version of Big Orange Planet is version seven. In the last, uh, twenty, twenty one odd years. If you were to go back to the way back machine, you’d see some truly horrendous stuff, you know, as we evolved, uh, unfortunately, a lot of people don’t know about the way back machine, but once you find it, you can never forget it. Um, I did once go back to my elderly mom’s house in Ireland and I found our very first website on her cuz she’d never deleted her cash. Right. So this is twelve years later and she’s still got our very first website on there. And that was slightly embarrassing. So I do think we have to put our best foot forward as in why would anybody give us the credibility if we don’t look good and if our side isn’t built correctly. I do see here in the Denver market where we exist, obviously we don’t necessarily have to deal with Denver folks, but a lot of our clients tend to come from the metro area, which is two million people odd, roughly extended Denver. You’ve got to put your own best foot forward. And we do see a lot of web design folks whose own sites we think are subpar. By the same token, from a marketing perspective, one of the big things we offer is SEO. And from that perspective, if we’re not at the top of Google, then I feel it’s, to me, it’s the same as not as having a substandard website for ourselves.
Daniela: Yeah, because I feel like with your service, I would also feel it would make sense that you would want to make sure that you show them that you are doing amazing so that they also know that you’re gonna do amazing for them right?
AL: That’s correct, yep, and you know, that’s what we sort of put in our proposals, you know, especially from an SEO perspective it’s just like, you know, don’t let me do the talking, why don’t you try searching for Denver web design companies type searches? Um, then you’ll, you know, that will give you sort of uh, some credence, if that’s the right word, uh, or some belief in the fact that we can do the same for you. Obviously you’re not a web design company, but you know, whatever sort of business you’re in.
Daniela: I’m curious to ask now, like more, and as we get more into the client relationships, um, I feel like at Penji, we do a similar service. We offer graphic design services. Um, and I think we get a wide variety of clients who are, uh, have a different amount of knowledge in design. And obviously that affects how like the service works or not. I would say more like it affects their experience in the sense that if they know less, they need a little bit more help in like, okay, this is what you want to do. We do have UX UI. So like, you know, like it’s a different process when you’re doing websites than if you’re doing like a logo or something. Yeah, and I think it it’s you know you kind of have to sort of be figuring out how you talk to these different clients how you explain things to them a lot of times the clients themselves doesn’t know what they want they have a vague idea but um yeah they don’t really know how to like what how to get there or they don’t know what it takes to have that um and you kind of have to like hold their hand a little bit and be like, well, you know, you’re asking for this and that. I imagine you guys go through a similar process.
AL: Oh, I think everybody does. Or, you know, old designers. You know, comments like, make it pop. Or, I kind of like blue. Or stuff of that nature. Happens all the time, I think. And it does come with sort of experience, as in how to deal with that, because you’ve dealt with it before. Uh, some people have some sort of idea. Some people have a fixed idea that might be really not ideal for them from our perspective. And then it’s a case of, you know, trying to, uh, put your stamp on what you think they need.
Daniela: Yeah, cause we’re not, ultimately we’re not designing for our own egos. We’re the end result is supposed to be a successful, uh, project for the client. But in a lot of cases, the client, as you said, just doesn’t know what they want. But somebody in there might have some sort of fixed idea regarding some aspect, whether it be a color or messaging or what have you. Uh then it’s a case of okay how can we incorporate that or how can we persuade them that maybe it’s not such a good idea or you know whatever you deem is appropriate and this is all down to experience.
Daniela: Do you have people who have come to you looking for like rebrands or like websites overhauls, um and you know it’s like a whole ordeal because they’re trying to do a big change?
AL: Um, yeah, uh, for sure. I mean, you know, sometimes we’ll get people who’ve had the same website for ten plus years and, you know, no longer even necessarily functions and maybe their web host is threatening to kick them off the server because their version of PHP is ancient or, you know, uh, you know, these things happen more often than people realize that web hosts will just like upgrade or you’re out of here and they tend to give you a quite a low time frame uh to do that once they decide to upgrade their server. Um, but uh to go back to the direct question uh yes, um it happens all the time and sometimes people have well I kind of want to it to look like the old site for example and it’s like well why? Why do you want it to look like the old size? The old size is not something you want to look like, you know? I mean, it’s got a, you know, if you have an existing brand and say you have a logo that’s on trucks and t-shirts and, you know, stuff like that, obviously you can’t do a full rebrand at that point, but you got to, you got to rebrand the website into whatever existing brand there is if they’re not doing a full rebrand of everything.
Daniela: I mean, I think like, just like, even if you’re not doing the rebrand of a logo, you still want to always keep things fresh and updated and up to what your market is going to be. I also think if you have a market that’s young, you have to consider that the young people that are, they’re always changing, right? Like the youth that you have been working with for the last five years is going to be different than the youth that you work with in those other five years, because generational changes happen. Or even if it’s an audience, I think that is older, people go through different stages in their lives and then they change based on what that stage looks like. So you still kind of have to reflect your business into that lifestyle, I think.
AL: Yeah, I would agree for sure. And we change, they change, everybody changes. Yeah, it’s just a case of, from our perspective, it’s like, okay, what’s cutting edge? I know cutting edge is one of those overused phrases, but it does sort of describe what we’re talking about as in what’s on the cusp right now of what’s really good. And then how do we adapt that to what fits with your guys’ business specifically and what existing brand you have or what rebrand you may want to institute website aside. And you really want to be ahead of the curve. I know that, like you said, maybe it’s like an overused term, but it is true. You want to always kind of be at the forefront of what change is going to happen and how that’s going to affect you.
Daniela: I think what really stood out to me with your guys’ work, you guys’ work is that when I was doing research and everything, I noticed that you don’t work with a specific type of industry. You touched upon this a little bit at the beginning. There’s, you know, like website companies that usually they niche down to, um, I’ve seen some of them niche down to specific industries. Like I saw one time when that was doing like strictly makeup, um, beauty, like stuff like that. And that was their specialties and they knew how to build websites for companies in that industry. Um, I’ve seen people who do it for like real estate, et cetera, et cetera. But you guys don’t, right? And you said this at the beginning, you haven’t sort of like boxed yourself into a specific type of industry that you build for. You kind of just, anybody that wants it and is willing to pay is pretty much you. Absolutely.
AL: It makes me curious.
Daniela: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
AL: Oh no, sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Although, yeah, and we’ve never pigeonholed ourselves. However, one type of client tends to lead to another client in the same sphere. Like, for example, quite a few years ago when there was an oil boom happening, all of a sudden we did one site for a big oil company. And next thing, all the Denver oil companies, because it’s a big oil sort of central hub if you will, all of them started contacting us so obviously we weren’t going to say no, you know, so we’re not sort of concentrating on it but it sort of it tends to find you. We’ve always had a lot of artistic tech folks like we’ve had a lot of interior designers, photographers, folks like that who understand the difference between good design and average design or however you want to phrase that one.
Daniela: No. Yeah. I know. I know that you guys have had, that totally makes sense. But the question that I wanted to ask was, cause I saw like, I saw that you guys had like a high heel website that you did that you had on your website.
AL: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
Daniela: And then I saw one. Yeah, that was, I mean, and then I saw one that had like, that was like for soccer balls or something like that.
AL: Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. I know what you’re talking about. Yep.
Daniela: And I mean, they’re such stark different things.
AL: Yeah, and I mean, I was like, wow. And then I clicked into the websites and I went in and I was like, they’re so different too. Because obviously they’re different industries, different clients that you’re appealing to. But it made me ask, it made me question, how do you actually… figure out or how do you work with such a wide range of people? Because I imagine the high heel company was looking for something so different than the ball company.
AL: Correct. How did you tailor that approach to like all of this wide range of people? And then you just mentioned an oil company that’s so different to these two industries.
Daniela: Yep. Well, one of the primary ways is that we kind of assign different designers based on who we think suits a particular project, because obviously different designers have their own fundamental style. You know, they adapt and, you know, as they grow from a career trajectory, they get better and they evolve, etc. But nonetheless designers will put kind of their own stamp on things one way or another I believe so when we sort of get you know such massively divergent projects as you’ve just mentioned first thing is it’s like okay who’s designing this and what sort of look are we going for you know in this case.
Daniela: But yeah, those are two really good examples. I can’t think of really two websites that are further apart in design and overall goals and specifics. But yeah, definitely two different designers in those cases, for sure.
Daniela: Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was just really curious. I remember the high-heeled design was so stood out to me. I know. Yeah. It was very, yeah, with the feet like this. Like I remember it. So it was, it was a really, it stood out to me and I really wanted to ask you about it. But we’re all unfortunately running out of time, Ali, but I think it’s a great note to end on. It’s been so great to have you on the podcast, but before we finish it, I do want to give you the space to promote anything, plug anything. If, what we spoke about resonated with someone in our audience. They want to work with you. They want websites. They want to find you, talk to you. The floor is yours.
AL: Okay. Uh, didn’t expect this one, but, uh, so what I believe is we’ve done this a very long time and we’ve always loved what we do. We really enjoy what we do. We’re associated with some, uh, very talented people that work for us or subcontractors, et cetera. We like to get it done and we like to get it done properly and we’re continually evolving. We do think we’re a notch or two above what’s a crowded marketplace. And we have the time spent doing this and the wisdom that comes with experience to back up whatever we say we’re going to do.
Daniela: Awesome. I will be adding the links to your website and your LinkedIn to the description of this video so that people can easily access them and find you. Thank you so much, Ali, for being on the podcast. It’s been a great experience. And everybody else, I will see you on the next episode.
AL: Okay. Thanks, Daniela. Nice meeting you.
Daniela: Nice meeting you.
