[Fully Managed] Elizabeth Karner Ep. 93 – Podcast Highlights and Transcript

Guilty Pleasure Confessions

Shannon: Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining me and Elizabeth today. We’re gonna jump right into it with a question on guilty pleasure. So this is your guilty pleasure confessions, Elizabeth. So what is your guilty pleasure right now? And could you explain it in less than a minute, your passions, everything about it that you think is fun and convince me to want it to be my guilty pleasure?

Elizabeth: Yeah, and this is a great question going into Lent, I’ve actually can help this and what I need to give up starting tomorrow. My guilty pleasure is reality TV and like Bravo. I’m a Bravo holic, I guess you could say. I love studying people. I think that’s just a part of being a producer is you’re someone who goes on set with people for 16 hours a day, sometimes. Hopefully not always. But I just find it fascinating. I used to say it was just for the fashion and now I’m realizing it’s not. It’s great to watch from a like anthropological perspective. I saw someone say that recently that people who watch it are so I’m holding onto that. No, I just, it’s good, a lot of it’s just like a talk track honestly. To where I have it playing while I’m doing house chores.

Shannon: So my sister is the same thing. Yeah, it is a very, there you go. I was just gonna say, I think it’s a very good thing to have in the background ’cause you can kind of zone out a little bit and do other things ’cause there’s so much going on. But I love reality TV as well. What’s your favorite show?

Elizabeth: That is so good. I do love the dating shows, which is like maybe even more of a guilty pleasure. But I started to get more into, my sister started me on Housewives.

Shannon: Yeah. So Real Housewives is I, I don’t know why I didn’t get into reality TV until I was much older, but it’s. I don’t know why I’m so akin to it now. It is something that is, it’s like a train wreck and you can’t, you’re so kind of repulsed a little bit by the drama of it, but you can’t look away.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And I think that’s, I love things like that. Definitely.

Shannon: Definitely. I feel that. And then like, it’s a little bit different, but game shows too. Like I’m really into traders right now, so we’ll see that and think that, but yeah. I do love a game show as well.

Elizabeth: Well, thank you for sharing your guilty pleasure. It is already mine, so unfortunately you did not convince me, but that’s okay.

Introduction

Shannon: But thank you again for joining me today. This is the Fully Managed podcast for everyone who is unfamiliar. This is a podcast where we discuss marketing and business tips to help assist you on your business journey. I’m your host Shannon Penji’s, partnership coordinator, and I’m joined here today with a very special guest, Elizabeth Karner from The Brandon Agency. Thank you so much for joining me today again.

Elizabeth: Yep. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk all things marketing and business.

Elizabeth’s Background

Shannon: So could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, maybe introducing yourself differently than I would? Anything that you think is relevant on your business journey, even up to this point that you think would be nice to share and everything that you’re doing now?

Elizabeth: Yeah. I have a little bit of a, I don’t know if there is a traditional story when it comes to, unless it’s like went to film school, went and decided to become a producer. But even then, I think that’s usually a journey for people. For me, I went to undergrad and studied art. I was a studio art major. Came outta college at a time where I thought I’ll be lucky to get a job where at a coffee shop getting 40 hours a week and get time in the economy.

Ended up at a resort in upstate New York where I was kind of doing a hybrid role of being a graphic designer for them, creating a lot of brochures, flyers, things like that. But also being a buyer for their internal gift store. So had to study audiences at that time. I don’t know if I would’ve put it in that technical term, but I needed to be aware of who’s my audience, who’s my target.

Had the opportunity to go to grad school while I worked there. So did a remote MBA program, which I think was really great ’cause I’ve always loved business and it allowed me to mix business and art together. And as I was in that role, I grew more in project management, admin. I ended up managing the marketing department before I left. Marketing and sales and comms in-house there. Learned a lot.

Ended up moving back home where I grew up, just for a lot of different reasons and was in-house at a couple of different places doing more of your traditional marcom or marketing communications roles. Always just had this desire to get into agency life. I think it just was that like, I want to go and make ads. And had the chance at a small agency to be a client services person and account manager slash project manager, it was, you know, wore many mini hats there. They did not have an in-house producer.

When I was in-house, I did, especially at the resort and another place I worked, I did a lot of event planning where I was planning conferences down to like the minute in speeches. And I think that prepared me for production. As a producer, you were in charge of just like bringing everyone together. I like to say I am a specialized project manager. Where and slash event planner, because when you go and film a commercial, it is an event, you know?

You have everyone’s call time. You’re in charge of that when they’re getting fed. You work with your first ad, if you have the budget for a bigger crew on what shots are gonna happen when you’re communicating with the client, keeping them happy. So a lot of moving parts. And so yeah, I just realized I had a bug for it.

I had a creative director that I was thinking, do I leave this secure job as an account manager? You know, I’ve kind of built my career up to this. I’m 30 years old at this point, and do I make that jump? And I knew I would have to probably like do some unpaid work or be a junior, you know, like just really take, it was a big shift, even though I was gonna stay in agency world.

And I had a creative director that thankfully said, you’re really good at this. I think you need to do it. And it gave me the courage I needed. Was able to apply as a junior producer at an agency before Brandon worked my way up to lime Producer, which means like, oversaw all the budgets, plus doing normal production work.

And then about a year ago, Brandon reached out and I just thought it was a really great opportunity. They touch a lot of different types of clients. Where I was before, I was more in the tech world, more in the B2B world. So just really wanted the chance to work on more like consumer packaged goods clients, food clients, finance. We have a lot of diversity at Brandon.

And I think it’s good. People might disagree with me, but I do think it’s good to work at different places, just to experience different ways of working. I was like, all right, I’ve been a producer at this one place. Loved it. Great team there, but really just wanted to see what would it be like somewhere else.

Discussing Non-Linear Career Paths

Shannon: I think that’s an amazing journey, and I do agree that a lot of roles in agency life are not linear. I think I’ve seen maybe a couple linear path that it’s like, this person went to college for this and then they did this for the rest of their life. But I like the idea of having no, no shame to the people that have taken the linear path there. I commend that for being able to have a plan and stick to it.

But I think that having this experience in different roles really helps you be more all encompassing sometimes where you have this experience of knowing what’s going on in other areas, even if you’re not actively involved in them because I think it really helps you be part of a team more than if you’ve settled in this one spot and this one role for so long that you might be more narrowed in the way that you’re thinking about things. So I love the idea of being able to consider all these other facets of what you do.

Elizabeth: Right. Well, and it’s like you never wanna be pigeonholed. Yes. If you stay at one place or you’re in one role your whole life, you become an expert in it. There’s institutional knowledge, and I’m not gonna say that isn’t valuable because it really is, especially at this day and age when people jump around so often.

But I think that’s really important as well as not getting trapped in, well, this is the way we’ve always done it. I think you bring someone in new and they can offer a really fresh perspective and they’re, they can question things and you can be like, oh, I never thought of it that way. Not that they’re always what, right. But I think that can be really healthy for a company.

The Value of Fresh Perspectives

Shannon: Yeah. That’s, I’m a big proprietor of hiring people out of college despite the fact that they’re like new and inexperienced. I think one, if you want someone, and maybe this is a little maybe just seems a little backwards, but if you want someone that is loyal to a company and you treat them well from the beginning, like they might wanna stay with you longer solely ’cause they don’t think that they can have it better, which sounds bad because you know, obviously you want people in your company especially to care about them, to grow.

And maybe they might have to leave in order to do that. But I think if you want someone to be a good fit for your company. Sometimes you need to train them from like the ground up because that outside perspective is really great, especially when you wanna be questioned on something. Or maybe you need to be questioned on something.

But sometimes if you just have the specific culture and you think that everything’s going well, then young people are great to have in that way as well. But to also question things because they have new knowledge from their different major that might be updated now as to when it was 10 years ago, or they have a new perspective of what certain generations are akin to and want to see. And I think that that is, I love a fresh, new perspective. I think they’re really valuable and not valued as much as they should be.

Elizabeth: Yes, I agree with that. Well, and I think that’s where agencies can be so valuable to business is because we are coming in with a fresh perspective. We aren’t getting bogged down in the weeds of admin things we’re able to say like, does this strategy truly make sense for reaching your target audience?

Also, a lot of times, you know, you can get a team of five to or more depending on what your needs are. Subject matter experts versus like, ’cause I did the in-house thing where it was like I’m supposed to be an expert in design, in PR, copywriting strategy. You know, versus, oh, I can hire a team that has someone who is constantly learning new strategy techniques, keeping up their expertise on that.

A copywriter who does it daily and their skills are super excellent. You know, me as a producer, I have to stay up on industry trends. It’s not something I do twice a year. So I think that’s really where an agency can be super valuable and really help a company grow.

Shannon: Yeah, 100%. We see that in our work all the time where one marketing coordinator or one marketing manager is doing everything under the sun. And there is definitely a trend in agency work where there’s wearer of many hats, especially when you’re a startup or a smaller agency. But I think that businesses are more likely to fall into this trap of, you know, we can’t afford to hire more people, or like another person. Whereas like, hiring an agency might be less money than hiring a whole new person, just one person. But, and I think people don’t consider that a lot of the time.

A Day in Production

Shannon: I wanted to switch gears a bit, because I really wanna hear about this. Can you walk me through like a day of production?

Elizabeth: Yeah. As a producer, really where most of my role is, is in pre-production. There’s a saying that I think it’s two hours of pre-production is worth one hour on set. So like you’ve got to plan and spend the time to get ready. As a producer, we are bringing the director’s vision to life. We are hiring the crew he needs, we are working with, if you have it, a location scout to find that location or the studio. We really are being the comms and the project manager to bring all the parties together that need to be there on film day.

Production is broken up into three main chunks of pre-production, production post, and or principle production is another term for production. And that’s when you are filming. So hopefully you’ve gotten all your ducks in a row. Your script is written, your storyboards are done, client has approved it. You hire all your talent, you’ve done callbacks, you have your wardrobe ready to go.

And then on production day, average is a 10 hour day. Some do 12 hours with load in, load out. You’re filming for about 10 hours and you have a schedule of shot, we call it a shot list of like, this is every shot I’m getting within a scene and a scene would be, you know, oh, we’re filming in the living room. That’s what this scene is.

And if you think about a shot, a good way to think about it is if you have two people talking, you know how you’ll see the face of one person talking and then it flips to the other person talking? People don’t realize, like those are two different setups. Those are two shots usually they’re talking to, we call it a stand in, so it’s not the talent. So they’re talking to the person that you don’t see delivering the lines. That happens more in TV shows when it comes to commercials and content creation.

I think we all know content’s king. It’s definitely let’s capture as much in this short amount of time as possible. And so with that, there needs to be a lot of planning. You have to plan, traditionally you’re shooting like a 60 to 32nd commercial and then that’s gonna be broken down. And even from then there you can have like social vignettes. You really have to think of all your medias now and you’re not just shooting a 92nd commercial.

I’ve even seen that shift in the last like four to five years where we would script out a 92nd commercial and then it got shortened to a 60. Now most of the time it’s a 30 with some 15. But yeah, the goal is you capture all those shots in the day.

A lot of times you’re also getting photography as well, because as an ad agency, we’re not just trying to create like one commercial. It’s a full campaign with ads that then our creative department will take and create a bunch of banner ads, meta ads, even a flyer if needed, or a billboard, whatever the client makes sense for their target audience. So between shots, we’ll have a photographer come in and capture those still images that will be turned into an ad, you know, using Figma or Photoshop.

And then as far as post-production, for me as a producer, it’s a lot of paperwork, it’s a lot of billing. So on the front end, I hopefully can create a budget. Sometimes I’m given a budget and then I have to make it work. Yeah. Drop feeder to pay. Paul, he a lot of negotiating. Just a lot of moving parts.

And then on the back end, it’s taking care of invoices for every single crew that was on set, taking care of talent invoices, filing paperwork, so. Usage in, in this day and age of social media being so big, I think people can forget that usage is still a thing when it comes to ads. So when I am presented a campaign, I’m first gonna ask, what is the usage? What is the media being bought for this? Is it gonna be out of home? Is it gonna be just pre-roll or just digital or social media that changes what you’re gonna pay your talent.

Especially nowadays with AI, I think people are a little bit more hesitant about the rights they sign away and the timeline, which is fair for them because if I acted in a spot and it had a one year usage and then the company’s like, I don’t wanna make another commercial, which is totally fine. Or it’s like, this is performing super, super well, we wanna keep using this campaign. Then I would go back to the talent or the talent manager and say, we wanna keep using this. Can I up the usage? And so there’s usually a usage fee.

So making sure that that paperwork is done on the front end and then filed on the back end. Sometimes I’ve done spots where you have like a hundred extras and so you’re not gonna get them to sign a release form beforehand, you have a, we call ’em a PA, it’s a production assistant. And they’ll have everyone sign coming in. And then it’s my job to then take that and make sure like, this is filed away, easy access if this ever gets questioned, things like that.

So it’s not super glamorous. I think people think of producers and they probably think of, oh, I’m blinking on her name. She was in Ted Lasso and then she was in the fall guy.

Shannon: I can picture who you’re talking about, but I’m horrible with names, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Elizabeth: I think people unfortunately can think of producers as just being people who are kind of laying around. Yeah. Like manipulating and. But as a producer, it’s my job to make sure all the details are in place and to protect not only the agency and my client, but also on the flip side, just my crew that I hire. You hire a bunch of freelancers, my talent, and just making sure everyone has a great experience on set. So, yeah. That was a very long-winded answer.

Behind the Scenes of Production Work

Shannon: I really liked it because it got me, it definitely gave me a big glimpse of what goes on and behind closed doors because I do think there’s this misconception around producers and the idea that their job is minimal or their job is just pointing at where to go or doing this and this and this, but or just like managing, almost like just being a manager, which I don’t think that’s the equivalent at all.

And I like that you provided all of the different steps that you go through.

Elizabeth: Probably missed a bunch too. There’s probably way more many different types of producers. You know, like a TV producer that you see in, what is it? The morning show is very different from what I do as a ad agency producer, or even I do have friends who have been reality TV producers, and that’s very different than what I do on a daily basis.

Or even like, there’s levels within there too. Because once you get to a big show, for instance, you just have way more staff. Or if you’re unionized, we are not unionized most. At least my experience. I’ve always worked on non-union shoots, which changes things a little bit. ‘Cause it’s like, it’s just different. Yeah. You’re not gonna have as big of a staff.

Shannon: Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. I think that’s very interesting to see all the levels of what you do, especially I’m wondering how are you able to like balance creativity with a budget? Because I know that’s something that’s kind of difficult to manage.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think that’s where the beauty of my role comes in, where this is in a joking way, but one of my friends, we joke that I’m a dream crusher ’cause I have to be the realist. I know, I know.

Not, but I have to be like, well, how are we gonna actually like, love this idea, love the idea of going and being on a mountain and shooting this or bringing snow in. Sure. But like, what can we do within budget? I think having physical limitations can actually create more creativity. You have to be willing to problem solve.

I also think making sure what is the key messaging like, you know, there’s the saying, keep it simple, stupid like Kiss, like does, yes. This is a beautiful shot and I love this. I love the idea of like getting a camera rig and having all this beautiful lighting and this setup’s gonna take us probably an extra two hours, but it doesn’t make our day. Is it really getting the content the client needs and is it communicating that clear message?

And so I kind of joke that not, I mean that I am a dream crusher, but also I think that’s where my role is so important because I work hand in hand with either an art director, creative director, or at both of my agencies, we have an in-house director slash DP.

And so, you know, if you go to a traditional production house, they are the creative head versus the producer is more the business side. And I think that yin and yang, that tension works really, really well. I can’t imagine me having to do this on my own and being a producer, and I’m not a director, nor do I wanna be, and I can’t wear that hat. I do. There are times where I get to come in and be like, Hey, have you thought about this? What if we do that? And I think that’s where I get to be creative. But yeah, it’s just, it’s working with people. It’s a partnership.

The Reality of Production and Budget

Shannon: Sure. I do think that there is a lot of importance in being a realist for something that has a budget no matter what it is, because I, yeah, you’re right. Like you can get a beautiful shot and do something beautiful, but if that’s not working in someone’s favor for ads or getting leads, or whatever their intention is, it doesn’t matter.

I mean, like you can, production value can be great. It can be something that someone can watch and like irrefutably say that this is a gorgeous production, but does that generate clients for this person or like, want people to use this product? If it doesn’t do that, then it’s basically for nothing.

And I think that is incredibly important. People have visions that are, like, their eyes are bigger than their mouth, so to speak, in the I or stomach, so to speak, in the idea that they have this vision that’s super wonderful and makes sense. Like, yeah, objectively this probably would bring in clients, but if it’s not realistic for their budget, then someone has to tell them that because you can’t just accept and make something that’s lower quality than what they expected. ’cause they’re just going to be disappointed.

Elizabeth: Definitely. Yeah. And I think it’s just having that, I don’t know if you feel this way, but I think as anyone in the agency world, there’s this education aspect. Not that our clients, our clients are very smart people, but they are having to manage up and down a lot of the times, and they have KPIs they have to meet.

There’s just a lot of pressures where they’re not supposed to be experts in, like I said, all those different fields, like they can’t be, and that’s where I think we can come in and be like, listen, this is your key audience. How do we communicate to them? Or if you wanna do that, it’s gonna cost x. If that’s the expectation, let’s say of your board, like, help us help you get that budget you need.

I think a lot of times people in-house are expected to just make, there’re just told to like, make it happen. And it’s like, no, there needs to be strategy, there needs to be reality.

One thing I was thinking about before this call is, and I think this is such a true thing is it takes seven touch points on average for people to like really recognize a communication. And with that, that means you are putting in like whether it’s a drip email campaign, whether it’s paying for, you know, banner ads, having a billboard, whatever it is, there’s these seven different touch points before someone’s like, oh yeah, there that is.

And I think sometimes we forget about repetition being needed. I think we can think like, oh, I just need to have this one great campaign, this one great script and hit people, and that’s gonna make them change their habit. I mean, really that’s what we’re doing as marketers. We are getting someone to buy a service, buy a product, change something they’re already doing, like change the convenience, make a business change.

If it’s B2B, make a lifestyle change. If it’s like, let’s say you’re selling some kind of healthcare product, be willing to go shop at, you know, take a chance on this brand of clothing or this, we have a whole outdoor division, so it’s like, why would you buy this knife versus the other knife? So yeah, I think that can go long way. That was long-winded. I’m sorry.

Client Education and Expectations

Shannon: Please don’t apologize. I completely resonate with your point because I do think that agencies are in charge of educating clients pretty often, and it’s not because they’re completely clueless surrounding the idea, but I think it’s just they’re asking you to do a service for them because ultimately they either don’t wanna do it themselves or they can’t.

And so obviously there’s going to be gaps in which they need filled in order to understand certain things. And I don’t think that’s wrong on them or their part to not understand the whole picture every time, but I think that it is on them to understand and take into account what you’re saying and believe you.

And I think that obviously transparency and trust goes with that. But it is very important for them to understand all of the process when it’s going on, unless they’re a very hands-off kind of client and they just have the budget and they’re willing to throw the budget at you and let you do whatever you want, then that’s on them if it doesn’t come up the way that they want.

But it is a huge thing for agencies to educate clients in the services that they provide, despite the fact that they’re coming to them for that exact service.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, and it goes back to having been in house. One person can’t do it all. I mean, it’s just not reality. You can half-ass do it all. It’s very difficult to manage.

Memorable Marketing

Shannon: Definitely well. We’re a little short on time. We’re a little over time, but I think that means it was a really good conversation. But I do wanna ask a fun question closing out for us. So is there anything off the top of your mind of something that you really admired where you were like, I love the production value of this? Maybe it’s a commercial that you saw recently or something that really worked. What would that be?

Elizabeth: A commercial that has just like been burned in my head for two decades. So I think great creative. You wake up and you just remember it. This was probably 20 years ago, Tampax, I think. I could be wrong on the brand, but it was some kind of feminine product brand. It came out with a commercial where there was no sound.

And I think that was genius because you know, this is the time before streaming before social media. But commercials, commercials were loud in your face. I think even now, one thing I’ve noticed is commercials will be a lot louder than the show I’m watching, and even nowadays, we sit there. Not everyone, but I think most people sit there and watch TV and have their phone in their hand. And when there’s a commercial, you look down and you’re scrolling.

And to have a commercial with no sound, you’re gonna look up. Like, I remember I didn’t have a phone at the time, but I remember looking up and being like, what is this commercial? Why is it suddenly silent? You think something’s wrong with the TV, so you actually have to look up because yours.

So I looked up and I’m watching the words pop up. I think sound design is something that is overlooked in general. I think it can be very, very powerful, whether it’s lack of sound or sound in the right place. I also think I wish jingles were still around. I know love jingles like liberty, I think we all know it. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

Yeah. It sticks in our head and talk about good marketing or “We are farmer” like I still remember phone number jingles for local like carpet companies from when I was a kid just because they made a jingle based on the phone number. And I feel like that’s a missed opportunity.

I know that we have moved more towards social media, but it’s like there’s still that opportunity for there to be maybe a jingle, a brand to have something on social media. If anything, kind of like, if you think about it, I don’t think, is it Cap Cut that has the jingle at the end where it’s like they have a noise?

Shannon: I think I may rid of it though. I would, I’m unfamiliar with Cap Cut. I know exactly what it is, but I don’t utilize it, so I would not know. Or maybe TikTok at some point had it, and then I think they, oh, like, so I think it is Cap cut. I know exact now I, because I’ve seen videos where people have used it.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Right. Because it editor for TikTok. But I feel like TikTok has gotten rid of that, which I’m like, that’s an interesting move on their part. Just because I do think that’s like, even when you repost it on other social media platforms, you’re like, oh, well that came from TikTok. So yeah, that’s my answer.

Closing Thoughts

Shannon: I really love that. I mean, I think that the advice of use more jingles is a great thing to end on, ’cause I really hope that that happens more. Maybe it’s a sort of marketing manipulation in the way that this psychologically damages my brain, because I wake up and I have the We are farmers jingle in my head. But, you know, it works. I will, you know, if I need insurance, I might think about that because it’s in my head.

But I really appreciate your take on that because I think that there’s a lot of different opinions that people have of what their favorite thing is, and I always wanna know why, because I do think that that contributes to how good your work is, like what you admire and what you see in media that you know, you strive for and look for in your own work.

Elizabeth: Well, and I think the key is being disruptive. I think we forget that where especially nowadays where there is so much trend marketing, where it’s like, oh, well this is a trend. Let me hop on that. But does that make sense for your brand and is that truly disruptive?

Like, I think of Liquid Death – love the genius of being effective because there had been other water companies that tried to come up with different packaging besides plastic and, you know, they leaned into, it’s better for the earth, you know, the eco side. But that wasn’t disruptive. Like so many people had made that noise versus liquid death said, let’s do a can. Let’s do something crazy with our branding and just come in and not care about, you know, is this it? It was kind of, maybe irreverent is a little strong, but I feel like it was just like, we’re gonna have you just gonna do a campaign, name your baby and you get a year free of water, you know?

And they were smart where they went to concerts and music festivals and things like that to get their product out there and just really were not afraid to be different and they didn’t feel the need to be like everyone else. So I think that’s something that companies need to just think through and think, how do I be disruptive? How do I stay true to whatever brand ethos I’m gonna be and communicate that to the masses and the right people will fall in love with it. You will get your target if you stay true to that. You’re not gonna get your target audience by hopping on whatever’s trending for the week.

Shannon: No, 100%. I think I do think people don’t consider that enough. Like I think a lot of times they’re looking for just a vast audience and not necessarily someone that will truly enjoy their product. And that’s what you want because you want good reviews. Like obviously you don’t want maybe someone that is anti Halloween or death or anything related to the that side of things, maybe you don’t want them drinking your water and bringing down your ratings based off of their principles around life.

But you will get those possibly edgy people or people who do want to, ’cause it is more sustainable to use metal cans instead of water bottles. Like even that is, even though people have tried to use it in the past, like they are so attracted to the brand because it’s unique, fun. And their merch is so great too. They sell, I think I saw like a coffin-shaped flask recently on their page. I just think they’re so creative and I do think that’s disruptive. People think of them constantly and this is actually liquid death has come up before, so I know that it’s in, it’s present in people’s mind.

Yeah, I won’t, but thank you so much for sharing all of this. I also think that this was a very fun chat, so I really appreciate you joining me, giving me some insights on what it’s like to be a producer and also sharing your unique takes on different brands. I think that this was such a fun time and I really appreciate you joining me.

Elizabeth: Of course, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I hope I said something of value and for could just walk away having a little bit more of an understanding of what a agency producer does. ’cause I do think there’s, we’re kind of elusive in a way. Yeah. And it was so nice to meet you, Shannon, and I really appreciate it.

Shannon: Thank you again, and thank you everyone for watching or listening. Please don’t forget to check out other podcasts so that you can learn like I get to do every time. And thank you so much again. Have a lovely day.

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