[Fully Managed] Jeremy Pagel from Innovative Media Solutions Ep. 158

Shannon (Host): Hello everyone, and welcome to the Fully Managed Podcast, where we discuss marketing and business tips to help assist you on your business journey. I’m your host, Shannon, Penji’s Partnership Coordinator, and I’m joined here today with a very special guest, Jeremy Pagel from Innovative Media Solutions Group. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Jeremy: Thank you for having me. Appreciate you.

Shannon: I appreciate you. So could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, maybe introduce yourself in a different way than I would if you have some preference and explain anything about yourself that you think would be relevant for your professional career that other people would want to know.

Jeremy’s Background & Company Evolution

Jeremy: So like you put it, you stated my name correctly as well. You’re awesome, you rock. So I’m Jeremy Nagel. I am founder and owner of Innovative Media Solutions, LLC here at Grand Forks, Dakota, which is my hometown.

As of late, it’s pretty cool. I mean, I’ve been in digital marketing since Tom gave birth to MySpace. So I’ve been doing this for a while. I started out promoting local bands when I was in middle school, high school, you know, the hardcore scene back in the day. And that kind of grew into a love of, well, how can we get more people to see the talent or see what you got going on?

And then I kind of attributed that success that I had with promoting just local bands. And that kind of grew and grew and grew and I’ve been doing this ever since. So right now is an interesting time and a really cool period for my company because we’re doing kind of a rebranding shift right now really into the healthcare marketing space.

I’ve been working with healthcare facilities, providers for a long time, whether that was dentists or orthodontists, primary care physicians, chiropractors, senior living facilities, that sort of thing. You know, what’s been really important is speaking engagements. I mean, getting invited to a lot of speaking engagements, podcasts like this, which is awesome because more people should hear and know about HIPAA compliance, which is a huge topic at the center focus of what I’m doing right now.

So currently I’m building a couple of different softwares that will be going on to market for HIPAA and for healthcare specifically. And then, yeah, just educating and teaching people ethical implementation and I was invited by the VC to the Grand Forks Air Force Base here to speak on boots to business, to exiting military personnel, to help with their startups, to have that transition be a little easier or being invited to the University of North Dakota’s Marketing Club spoke with about 45 to 50 students there about marketing and business.

And what I mean, you know, in this day and age and so making that transition, this is a very nice place to be. My grandfather was the first physiatrist in the state of North Dakota and helped build the first physical rehabilitation center in Grand Forks, which is now owned by, I believe, Altru.

So, you know, HIPAA compliance and patient… I mean, he was the kind of guy who would defend when the elderly people had their Medicaid Medicare claims fought against by insurance companies. He was the type of doctor to show up in the courtroom. His accolades would speak for himself. You know, so we are people… I mean, I’m a solopreneur. I’m just out here kind of being, you know, like it’s the wild, wild West right now. And data security and protecting patient information is extremely important. So that’s kind of been the central focus as of late. Besides that, I’ve been doing SEO for around a decade and contribute where I can there and I can keep going and going, but can definitely transition me away from talking about this.

The Importance of Ethical AI in Healthcare

Shannon: Well, I’ll come in on a couple of things. I think that first, ethical AI is something that I really love to talk about. One, because I think that philosophy is something that I can talk about better than the technological aspects of the AI, because I am not well versed in technology. As we discussed before this call.

I think it’s topical because of the entire healthcare CEO thing. But I also think that it’s nice to know that someone like you is spreading awareness for these specific things because I think that a lot of people see this AI as like a new shiny object and they want to incorporate it in as many things as they can because they hear that it’s easier and it helps and it does all these different tasks that, you know, so many different healthcare industries are under-funded, don’t have enough staff, whatever it may be. This is such a great thing to implement. But then there’s very horrible things that could come out of it where people might actually have a good outlook on, “Oh, this might do something good,” but it actually does something very, very detrimental to a population.

Jeremy: And that’s, you know, it’s great that you bring that up, too, because most often in my experience, you know, about 15 years in digital marketing and then, you know, the last few years really, I was speaking on telehealth, telecommunications before it was like the cool thing to talk about or do. It kind of just gets overlooked because so many, especially in the healthcare sector, especially in the United States, right. It’s profits over people. It’s what can save money, what’s quick and efficient. And people look at AI as it’s all-in-one solution when really you’re not understanding what server that’s being hosted on, you’re not understanding where that data’s being transmitted. And then lastly, you’re implementing it simply to save money rather than how do we increase the quality of patient’s care?

And, you know, I’m in Grand Forks North Dakota, right? So there’s a lot of rural areas around here. And I was on another podcast with Jeff Carlton and we talked about this because, you know, farmer so-and-so or whoever out in rural North Dakota, you know, they can’t always make it to a doctor appointment. They can’t always make it to a medication refill appointment.

So these things are important to have in place. However, that healthcare provider needs to make sure that HIPAA compliance is being followed not only by them, but also by the marketing company, which is why I do HIPAA compliance marketing audits. So I’ll audit your current marketing company and check for HIPAA compliance with one of my proprietary softwares that I’ve literally been in my office here at home, coding by myself.

So you’re right, they look at it as a very all-in-one solution, you know, it’ll streamline. Whether that’s like a chat bot to help answer FAQ on the home page or whether that’s a telecommunication aspect to a healthcare provider’s realm in which they exist. It’s just you got to be following that HIPAA compliance. And when you’re outsourcing to save money again, it’s usually when it comes down to it, marketing is saving money and “how can we get the most bang for our buck” rather than, “hey, let’s invest, let’s make sure that we’re compliant, we’re not leaking data and we’re not implementing something we don’t fully understand just to save money.”

Because not every country has HIPAA, you know, and a lot of outsourcing happens to. And while they may have other rules and regulations, it’s not the same as what is going on in the United States. So, yeah, there’s a lot of horror stories when it comes to that, and that’s the reason it exists and federal and state regulations exist in the first place.

The Problem with Short-Term Solutions

Shannon: Yeah. I think it’s also this search for short-term solutions and not longevity. I think that, you know, again, AI being that new thing, a lot of people are like, “oh my God, we have a problem right now. This would be perfect to implement in order to fix this.” But they don’t look at the big picture and see what this could impact in other ways.

And I think that it’s crucial in a field like that where these things need to be accounted for. Whereas if you’re incorporating AI in an agency that is, you know, just a marketing agency and you don’t work with the healthcare field, I mean, you’re going to figure out that a campaign doesn’t work because you have something faulty in your programming or whatever. Maybe it and that’s fine. I mean, that’s not going to… unless you’re working with small businesses in which that campaign was detrimental to their growth, you’re going to be okay. You can just pivot. Whereas the healthcare industry is something that’s, you know, I don’t know if more fragile is the word I’m looking for, but something that impacts people on a level where it’s quality of life and death possibly if things are not done correctly.

And I think that many agencies that may work with healthcare, you don’t see it like that.

Real-World HIPAA Violations in Healthcare Marketing

Jeremy: Yeah, they don’t really. And I’ve witnessed it. I mean, whether that’s having… you know, I had posted this on my YouTube channel, but, you know, of course when you speak the truth or you say something that might not be… I like going against the grain and speaking up for those that can’t. Right. So like people over profits, it’s not… I don’t know you’ve seen Matilda, the old Disney movie with Danny DeVito when he was sawing rusty car engines at the used car sales. You know, like, that’s what I view old school marketing as. And that’s because I’ve worked for companies like that and I’ve seen some stuff.

Yeah and it comes down to, well, how come there’s 20 people on the back end of this WordPress site from three or four different countries? You know, that don’t have HIPAA regulations? And why do they have access to patient forms that are being submitted on the back end of a website, you know, and is that server compliant? Where is it being stored and you know, so data security, data privacy, that’s where people should be focusing right now because AI is learning off of all of us and while we might not get the kickback commission, so to speak, that we want for training all of these models ourselves, it’s something you definitely should be aware of and definitely look into outsourcing or doing that kind of work.

I don’t outsource. I do everything in-house. Yeah, it might be a little more stressful, but I know I can trust my work and I know where everything is and where everything’s being stored. And I don’t have to worry about a data leak, you know, the thing or what. Yeah, it’s stored securely in this room that I’ve done that has been designated the home office.

So it’s all very important. And with the healthcare providers, you know, there’s negligence too. You know, there’s straight up cost savings. “This will save money. I don’t care about much else.” Don’t have the agreements in place contractually or, you know, it’s the again, it’s the old school marketing profits over people rather than people over profit. That’s how it should be. And especially in the healthcare sector.

Educating Clients on HIPAA Compliance

Shannon: What methods do you have to educate clients on these complexities? Like I know that I’m sure a lot of them are coming from the place of saving money. And maybe when you suggest something, they might not be too happy to hear it. How do you kind of, you know, maybe persuade them to implement some things in which you think are justifiable?

Jeremy: Well, look, you know, I have no problem pissing people off, especially when it comes to HIPAA compliance. And like, better make sure that that is being protected. I mean, there’s such simple things that you can do. But how I educate is pretty much tell them, “Hey, look, I ran your site. I know that there are violations” and you know, whether I can’t really go into some of it just because some of it’s the software that I’m creating. So I don’t want that out there yet. But there’s ways to tell even without having a look at the back end of a site or anything, if there is HIPAA compliance being followed.

So even that might even come down to reviews, you know, providers listing a name or a family member’s name or “Hey, so glad you came in to our clinic today for your so and so and so.” That’s a HIPAA violation. And you know, you can’t do that. And so I’ve caught myself having to explain things to doctors that I didn’t think I’d have to explain to a doctor.

So I come at it from a position of this is like my family lineage and like again, we put people over profit. So how I educate is literally telling them, “Hey, this is a violation, you know that.” And the more serious violations, you know, those go on the record. It’s not something that just goes away.

So educating is, you know, the ways I educate is getting invited places, speaking on podcasts like this to try to raise awareness. I can only do so much, but I’ll do as much as I can to get the word out and to make sure that people know, “hey, next time you’re at your provider, ask them if they’re HIPAA compliant. Ask them how their staff is trained.”

You know, staff training is another big one. I have something in the works for that as well for helping to train staff on HIPAA compliance because I’ve seen some pretty lackadaisical staff that, you know, whether that’s storing the data, how they store it, leaving a sheet out that has a check-in with names on it or something. All these things really. And I focus on the Midwest hardcore, right? Because that’s where I’m from. I’ve lived in Minnesota, Wisconsin, in North Dakota. I worked on campaigns in Iowa, you know, Montana. You know, Montana’s a little out of the sphere, I think, for the Midwest.

Shannon: But I’m horrible at geography. So if you told me that I would have believed you.

Jeremy: Well, and it’s, and it’s coming down to look, you know, I have been talking about this for a few years before other people were, unfortunately, because I think there’s a lot of industry leaders that should have been and said there was… you know, people see and they see a gold rush, you know, and they see this. They get this, like you said, you know, the shiny object syndrome. You know, they’re like crows, you know, and they’re like, “oh, this and this and this.”

Shannon: But if you get ahead of the game.

Jeremy: Yeah, get ahead of the game and sacrifice what? And that sacrifice what? They don’t know because no one’s told them or they don’t understand it fully. So it’s just really important that you know that the word is out. And in the Midwest, I’m not letting them be left behind. There’s a lot of area for growth, for room and for help for other people. You know, in rural, the ruralness of the state is almost the same as, you know, it’s not geographically locked. Right. Because inner city like Minneapolis. So they don’t have resources to get places or maybe a ride or something.

So this whole AI rush really should be focused and centralized upon the fact that it can increase the quality of your patient’s care if you keep their data secure. Number one, you’re following federal and state regulations, as you should. And as a doctor, you should understand that. And number three, like that’s what you’re there for, you know, so I just view all of this and how I educate is literally just talking to people and letting them know if it upsets them, whatever. I’m not… I’m a little bit of a nut, a little bit of a market disrupter. So I’ll call you on your shit. Because what it comes down to is little Janie or Tommy or whoever’s information being leaked. And it’s not just adults, you know, it’s kids information. It’s parents information, it’s grandpa, grandma, you know, whoever.

So really, it’s a huge, huge problem. And HIPAA violations have been going up statistically. So just getting the word out, not leaving the Midwest behind because it’s the Midwest. It’s not Silicon Valley. You know, it’s not New York. You know, it’s not these bigger places. So as long as I can do my part in letting people know about the issue, talking about it, and then having my own softwares that I’m developing to catch people that are flagrantly or within their own negligence, letting HIPAA violations happen.

That’s what I’m doing. I’ll just call you and tell you and I really don’t like pitching. I don’t sell is what I tell people, because I don’t. I put people over profits. You focus on solutions and you focus on how you can help somebody. If money will come, focus on the money, it’ll steal your fingers, you know, every single time. And at least that’s one of the lessons that I’ve learned. And so focusing on the people, that’s what most people are missing out on. So it’s just kind of it gets a little redundant, you know, because it’s like I put the people first. But what’s that mean?

And that means protecting their data and that means being there for them, you know, focusing on them rather than yourself and your bottom line.

The Value of Calling Out Bad Practices

Shannon: You’re also providing, I think a soft sell because you’re providing value to these people that may like negligence is, you know, they could have access to the information, but they don’t they choose not to or whatever it may be. And like that is unfortunate, but a very common thing. It’s unfortunately common sense. But you’re providing not only this education for free and easily whereas like yeah they could do that themselves but they don’t because either don’t have the time, they don’t want to or you know there’s cost saving solutions that may not be great ones or people centered solutions. But I think that providing them value, being able to call them out on what they’re doing wrong is still a selling point. Because if you can do that and then also provide them with these services in order to do better, then you know, it’s like a no brainer. I mean, I think that where someone would not is if they’re just like a really bad person.

Jeremy: Yeah. Well you said it. It’s just kind of incredible to even hear that people would say no to something like it. Yeah. And I’m sure it happens. And that’s scary.

The Reality of Healthcare Marketing Sales Pitches

Shannon: Yeah. Well, yeah. And especially with I mean and it usually comes down to cost is it’s cost savings and then the fact that, you know, working with the hundreds of different healthcare providers that I have over the years, I mean, one time I had worked for a company I was managing 34 different accounts at once that burned me out. There’s a reason I made a transition to what I do now.

But, you know, there’s the hard sells, you know, there’s soft sells all of this. But what it comes down to, I mean, I get like probably I would say anywhere from like around 60 to 100 to 120 cold pitches on LinkedIn every single week. I hate being pitched not because I’m good at what I do, but because it’s impersonal. It’s usually rude and, and so when I say I don’t sell, I present that information and say, “this is a solution.” If that doesn’t happen, I mean, there’s regulatory committees that need to be spoken to in regards to violations.

So it’s like, yeah, it is a no brainer. And at the same time, why haven’t you been doing this? And I mean, there’s just so many questions that get brought up after that, you know, what have you been doing? Where has… where were you like.

Shannon: If you’re aware of it, then they’re like, obviously you’re actively seeking it. But I mean, like there will be other people that will be aware of it at some point, if not immediately, because they should be doing that anyway. So it’s like, why would you not use this solution when you’re going to be in a great deal of trouble if you don’t, at least that’s the one.

Community Impact and Standing Up for Principles

Jeremy: And like, how do you want your community to view you? And I mean, I am not above mentioning and talking about it, especially if people are going to a place like I don’t have a NDA with any of these. Like that’s the point at which I don’t care. And when I say I don’t care, it’s when it’s met with resistance and knowing that people could be harmed or, you know, you have these data leaks and then where people are getting calls from.

When those data leaks happen, you’re getting telemarketing calls, elderly are being preyed on with robocalls, you know, and so all this information being leaked has a huge affect like the radius. It’s like throwing a stone in a lake. And you see those ripples. You know, it affects that community because well, that healthcare provider in that community may have been in that community for 30 years, but it’s going to ripple once that data is leaked and with people not knowing everything they should before implementing AI or before building a website, you know, or hiring a marketing company, that’s going to be honest, you know, I mean, that’s another one of my pointers. My ideal client is anyone who’s been screwed by marketing companies, that’s my ideal client.

I had spoken with a nonprofit actually the other day, gave them some great terms, you know, because it’s in the community. It has to do with the arts and stuff. And they’re always defunded, too, you know? So I wanted to give back and even after I pitched, the person was so hesitant and so not willing to give control over the website, even though the website should be taken down and redone, like that, you know. The PTSD is there from so many scandalous things that had happened in the past and I get that.

So I’m here to kind of restore that name as much as I can while disrupting as much BS as I can as well to regain that name of… I don’t know if marketing ever had a great name or vision in anyone’s mind, but at least there’s people like myself and a few other professionals I associate myself with that are out here trying to literally… I’m trying to make my grandfather proud. You know, he’s not around anymore, but I know he would be. He would definitely be proud of the fact that putting people over profits and you’re trying to raise awareness about something that is violated every single day and that will bring people into the century that we’re in right now. And that’s, hey, let’s care about people.

I mean, it’s like people are kindness and care. And a lot of these healthcare providers, you know, they’ve made money off of you for a long time. So, you know, what I’m here to say is long overdue that you’re following the rules. And again, I don’t know why myself, 33 year old, who was 15 years in digital marketing, has to explain that to a licensed physician or orthodontist or whatever. But I’m here to do that. And at a certain point, that white coat doesn’t mean anything to me. I need to talk to you, a business owner, and make sure that you are following what you’re supposed to follow, because that’s other people’s families. And it really does comes down to that, let’s care about others and let’s give people affordable access to things while maintaining their dignity and their privacy.

So, you know, no, the white coat does nothing for me. I’ve been to so many doctors.

Shannon: Ignore so many things about me. HIPAA compliance is the least of my worries. I would just hope that they would care enough about me to investigate things at the baseline.

Reinvesting Savings into Better Patient Care

Jeremy: And that brings it back to the abrasive nature of the stuff you know. It’s okay well if you’re saving money, if you implement AI right, HIPAA compliant, you’re saving money. Well that money can be reinvested into your practice or reinvested in the training for your staff so they’re not a deer in the headlights when it comes to “how do I store this information” or “what am I supposed to do with it.” But compliance-wise, I also give HIPAA compliance audit checklists. That’s another way I do it.

But if you’re having all of that money saved and more time, then that means more time they can focus on someone like you who needs to maybe talk more to get to the physician has more time to listen, you know? So it all comes down to, okay, let’s save time, let’s save money for sure, but then let’s reinvest that time and that money into making sure that there are solutions in place for people who, number one, can’t get to the clinic. So telehealth, right. And or the physician or whoever your healthcare provider is. I work with some therapists as well for mental health, which is another area that’s lacking in just access, you know.

So really all of this, if you have ethical implementation into your practice, regardless of healthcare niche, then you should be able to reinvest that time into listening more to your patients. I don’t know the stats on that, so I won’t say it, but I know it’s not a lot. It’s like in minutes, you know that a physician has to speak with someone and how can they need prescriptions and like know how things have affected you. What would have done if you have 3 minutes, you know.

AI’s Potential for Healthcare Efficiency

Shannon: Then I think it would be really lovely to have some sort of AI implementation into searching for those things because obviously not every doctor is well versed in your issues specifically. It’s impossible to have that much knowledge unless you have some kind of photographic memory to be able to, you know. Yeah, maybe you’re doing what they could do at home is Googling something. But in a way that’s more medically based, like if there was some kind of, I don’t know, again, technology, not me, to be able to do that in a way that’s quicker and efficient. But it like efficiency is what I’m looking for and I think what most people are looking for in the idea that like here’s all these possible things, let’s write all of the things that are ruled out by, you know, your general good health or whatever it may be. And then we can still isolate these possibilities because there’s so many things that, as you know, as a normal person, you don’t think to look for and like that’s why you’re going to a doctor. Like you can go on Google, you can do that, that’s fine. And you might terrify yourself because doctor Googling is the worst thing to do when you find out you have a brain tumor just because you have a headache.

Jeremy: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. It’s WebMD stuff. I mean, that’s what’s crazy too, is there’s so many opportunities, you know, with AI in vision, say, and being able to detect fractures, green sticks in X-rays a million times faster than a radiologist would, you know. And so there’s a lot of cool ways that AI can be used as long as patients’ information is protected. There’s not a lackluster effort to protect it and there’s no negligence because information is so readily available nowadays.

That’s why, you know, sometimes I have an issue with like professors or colleges, you know, not just because I used to love being a class clown, but because, you know, there’s no reason to not have access to that knowledge. And anyone who gatekeepers that needs to get out of the way because it’s literally detrimental to a community and is detrimental to more areas than just healthcare. But that’s where I happen to be focusing because well, because it’s just complex. You know, I got to keep it interesting. I got to switch it up. So, I mean, being able to educate them, quite honestly, that’s something making them the martyr of sorts. For me, that’s stricter than their healthcare. It’s the sort of…

Taking on Large Healthcare Companies

Jeremy: It’s probably a good term, probably a good chairman. Yeah, I love being able to, you know, call out the bigger healthcare companies and, you know, I’ll tag them in my posts. I want responses, you know. I know. I know I’ve scanned your site. I literally run so many tests that I know. And so I’m tagging you because you know what? I’m not about the profits in any of this as long as patients are protected. And if people cared more about that, I think the whole system would advance. You know.

Shannon: Do you ever worry about your general safety because of doing that?

Jeremy: No, I don’t think anyone ever… if they don’t have time to follow up on compliance, they don’t have time to worry about me until I post an op-ed, you know, or something. But I mean, those kind of tactics like being a market disruptor. And I’m for some reason I’m very… I still could be a lawyer, I guess. But I love finding the little loopholes or the gaps in the market. I’m extremely good at that.

And that’s what these softwares that I’m bringing to the forefront first with book and clients and healthcare will help to start addressing and hopefully give other innovators and creators ideas into how we can further that so that not only providers being able to check in on their marketing companies, but then patients before submitting a form, now being able to, “hey, is this site have an SSL? Is there a reCAPTCHA? Is there just like basic security measures being used?”

But yeah, no, I mean, if I worry about my safety now… see it’s their idea and they don’t have time for their patients and they don’t have time to follow up. They don’t have time to follow me. I would welcome any of them to those so they could talk to me and just like, say like, “hey, like let’s care about people instead of, you know, malpractice insurance rates.”

Shannon: If I can’t reach you in a few months, I’m going to assume you’re in witness protection and that you did something really crazy.

Jeremy: And the crazy good part, the crazy good is important.

Closing Thoughts and Appreciation

Shannon: But yeah, no, I really do commend you for doing this because I do align definitely with a lot of your views. I mean, I think you’d have to be… I’m going to say it… a horrible person in order to not. But that’s just my opinion. But yeah I do think that you know I commend you for doing this kind of work and for putting this kind of awareness. I think it’s really important, especially I’m sure that it’s even… I’m in a hub of information in like on the East Coast. I’m in Pennsylvania, I’m in Philadelphia right now, but I am not in the Midwest. I’m sure it’s even worse there. And even then, like being in a hub of information, it’s still happening. And there’s all of these problems in the healthcare industry.

And to know about that is very funny, because I had no idea this was what we were going to talk about today. Well, this is what I’m having. I mean, not that I had no idea. Of course, I had questions about it because it’s something that’s very heavily on your social media. But it is… I’m happy to one learn about it. So thank you. And also to know that someone’s doing this because it’s really, really important. So thank you.

Jeremy: You’re welcome. I mean, is there any boring question that you wanted to ask though?

Shannon: I couldn’t have expected to learn this, you know, this… and I’m stuttering because I don’t have words, but I didn’t expect to go so much in so much depth on this topic and I learned a lot. So thank you so much for providing this information because I don’t usually get to talk about, you know, more unique topics. And I started to talk a lot more about marketing, and I’m happy that I did it because sometimes it it’s marketing.

Jeremy: You know, they did inquire about the marketing is marketing is marketing.

Shannon: But marketing is marketing. And I yeah, I mean, I just appreciate the opportunity to talk about it and to, you know, hopefully in the future be back on. And we can talk more about it.

Jeremy: If you’re not in witness protection.

Shannon: Yes. Even if I am, I could throw a VPN on something.

Jeremy: Yeah. The solutions are endless.

Final Thanks and Sign-Off

Shannon: Yes, yes. Well thank you so much for joining me today. We were a little over time, but I had a great time, so I don’t care. Thank you for joining me today. This is wonderful. This is fun and also really educational. I appreciated all the knowledge that you brought to the table. This is a unique topic, but I got to learn about it. It’s very exciting. So thank you for sharing.

Jeremy: Thank you for letting me talk so much about myself.

Shannon: Yeah, exactly. And obviously we’re… Well, I appreciate you for having guests on like me and actually listening and being able to push that out to more people because it is extremely important. And as you remember, like, you know, I think Harry Styles or someone says that on SNL, I’ve been watching a lot of SNL, but I think it’s “treat people with kindness.” Like each other and to people, kindness like person caring people. Everyone did it in their own corner of the world. Like the world would be a better place. It’s hard to do it on a grand scale and make this huge impact. But to be able to do it like just on a smaller scale and as much as possible is, you know, I heavily believe in that.

Shannon: You’ll see the ripples.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Shannon: Just make noise.

Jeremy: Yeah, no trouble. Thank you so much again. And thank you everyone for watching. Please don’t forget to like and subscribe. Hopefully, more fantastic people like Jeremy. There’s… you know, I don’t know if anyone’s bad people. That’s not me to judge if they’re on the podcast or I don’t… This is wonderful. And you know, the agency world is very interesting and I hope that there’s more transparency and good to see in it. So thank you for being one of the good ones.

Jeremy: Thank you. I appreciate you so much, Shannon. Thank you.

Shannon: Thank you. Have a lovely day, everyone.

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